Wednesday, March 22, 2017

Has Pope Francis Finally Addressed the "Dubia"? -- "No to Communion for Remarried Divorced and Abortion Politicians"

Chile's Bishops report concerning their visit to Rome that Pope Francis declared a "clear no"
to Communion for the remarried divorced and for politicians who promote abortion.  Has the Pope changed his disposition? The President, Msgr. Santiago Silva and General Secretary, Auxilliary Bishop Fernando Ramos (Right)
(Rome) As it appears, Pope Francis has no longer any "doubts", according to the reports of the Chilean bishops who recently made their ad limina visit to Rome. The papal statements reported by them are a radical turn-around. "Since it is unacceptable that the President of the Chilean Episcopal Conference and his Secretary General have invented the words of the Pope, the news is of the utmost importance," said the Spanish columnist, Francisco Fernandez de la Cigoña. "As Fernandez de la Cigoña says," some of the statements sound as if Cardinal Burke had spoken. "What happened?

The allusion to the "doubts" refers to the "Dubia" (doubt), which gave the four cardinals addressed to the pope against controversial parts of the Post-Synodal letter Amoris laetitia to the Pope. For more than five months, the head of the Catholic Church has refused to respond to the five questions on central themes of the faith and morality. Shortly before Christmas, one of the four signatories, Cardinal Burke, spoke of a reprimand in camera caritatis. If this did not come to anything, the Pope would be subject to a public reprimand.

Now, the leaders of the Chilean Episcopal Conference reported that Pope Francis had explained the doctrine of the Church with "clear words".

"The Pope!" says Fernandez de la Cigoña.

Cancellation of situational ethics - Only voluntary celibacy not on the papal agenda

The Chilean daily El Mercurio conducted a joint interview with the President and Secretary General of the Chilean Bishops' Conference. One focus was the ad limina visit to Rome and the question of the remarried and divorced. Both confirmed that  Pope Francis instilled to them a clear "no to the Communion for remarried divorced persons and for politicians who pronounce for abortion."

The Secretary-General, Monsignor Fernando Ramos, also disagreed with the statement that Pope Francis had spoken in an interview with the weekly newspaper Die Zeit for the abolition of priestly celibacy. The Pope has made it clear "that a more voluntary celibacy is not in his agenda".

On the question of the Communion for remarried and divorced, Francis had rejected a "situational ethic" and told an anecdote from his family to clarify the matter.

"What happened?"

The distinct "no" to the communion for remarried divorced persons told to the Chilean bishops upon their visit to Rome led Fernandez de la Cigoña to the question:

"What happened? I dont know. Something has happened, for what Francis has told the Chilean bishops is not what can be read out from Amoris laetitia and read out by two cretins on Malta and most of the German bishops, and certainly not what Francis told  the Argentine bishops in a letter. 
So what happened? 
I dont know. But it may be that Francis saw the situation in which he had ridden the Church, but he did not want to enter into history causing a schism with incalculable consequences. His popularity among those who really count in the Church has declined sharply. Not a few have sussed out the not infrequently meaningless verbal chaos and have convinced themselves of the arguments of their opponents. 
Perhaps he himself has realized that the arguments of his opponents have a great weight, for if all the popes before him have taught something else, it seems quite obvious that  all the others may not have been wrong, but he is wrong. Everyone who wants to hear what he wants to hear is applauded in the short term, but in the medium term the voice of the pope falls into disrepute because different interpretations, which can be called upon, devalue his voice. 
Now it is time to wait to see if the statements of the Chilean bishops or the contrary are confirmed. Everything is possible. Their statements are excellent, including the personal anecdote about his niece, who is married to a divorced man. The divorced, a Catholic, goes to the confessional and says to the confessor: "I know you can not absolve me, but bless me." The married nephew is clearly aware of his situation. And apparently this also applies to the papal uncle. 
I think these are very important statements about which we can look forward. All Catholic. I know, of course, that it is still difficult to assess its real significance and scope in comparison to other statements to the contrary: What will tomorrow bring?"
Also important is the papal "no" to the communion for politicians who pronounce in favor of or use abortion. How does this attitude fit in with the latest testimony of the pope confidant Marcelo Sanchez Sorondo? Sorondo had explained in an interview with Jan Bentz for Arrangements that he talks to the abortion promoters because that will "do more". Specifically, he addressed "more" in the fight against the "new slavery" to the UN agenda. At the same time, Sanchez Sorondo frontally attacked the Pro-Life movement and accused them of "achieving nothing".

Text. Giuseppe Nardi
Image: Infocatolica / Vatican.va (screenshot)
Trans: Tancred vekron99@hotmail.com
Link to Katholisches...
AMDG

61 comments:

  1. This is not surprising. It's very much a common tactic of Modernists to say one thing orthodox among many unorthodox things. It keeps the confusion going. Pope Francis has done this numerous times, but only now regarding the dubia.

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  2. More and more curious. Have all our prayers for his conversion been answered at last?

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    1. Naaah. This is the devil's tactic. Just you wait.

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    2. Just think about it: if that is what he really believes why does he not come out and say it to everyone. Say it in a homily. Give a conference to all the Bishops and say that is what I mean.

      This is the tactic of the evil one to put us to sleep while he pulls the rug from under our feet again.

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  3. yeah, whatever! Rome will now issue a statement confirming what the Chile Bishops have said, Burke et al will not be able to do anything because the Pope has 'retracted', nothing will change, and communion will still be given to whoever.
    Paul

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  4. Bergoglio is a master of doublespeak as are all the devil's disciples. No, he has NOT answered the dubia. If he answered the dubia he would have formally addressed the four cardinals who questioned him. This bishop of Rome always says something 'orthodox' when he is close to being exposed for his heterodoxy. It is this that compels his recent orthodox statement.

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    1. Yep, the 'doublespeaking Pope' rides again. Typical 'Francis Speak'. Catholic one minute, anti Catholic the next. That's how he rolls.

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    2. It's kind of hard to walk back in a public statement like this one.

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    3. The doubters above are 100% correct. Bergoglio's record for deceit is extensive and clear enough to call into doubt every orthodox word that comes out of his mouth.

      I'll believe him when he publicly apologizes to Cardinal Burke and all the faithful Catholics he has consistently scolded and insulted. I'll believe him when he removes Cupich from the Chair in Chicago. I'll believe him when he accepts the resignation of Weurl and informs Marx and Kasper they are excommunicated unless and until they recant their many statements opposing the teachings of the Church. Then I'll believe him.

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    4. ....and when he frees the saintly Fr. Manelli from unjust bondage and restores his legacy; when he cleans sodom out of the vatican instead of surrounding himself with it and promoting it; when he FORMALLY and without prevarication answers the questions of the dubia (!); and about a hundred other actions (not just contradictory statements); then, maybe THEN, I'll believe him.

      Mundabor (as usual) has got it right....
      https://mundabor.wordpress.com/2017/03/23/liar-cheating-francis-tries-it-again/

      And Winslow....your comments are dead on.

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    5. How does contradicting himself add to his credibility. There's plausible deniability and then there's this.

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  5. Another Divine strike against Modernism. Even if Bergoglio later denies what he told the Chilean Bishops, the fact is he said it! We Traditionalists have been praying and offering sacrifices for the conversion of poor sinners, this may be the fruits of our efforts.

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    1. PT77, What is the color of the sky on the planet you come from?
      G.

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  6. Bergoglio will say one thing, and to the other. Just like any good opportunist who at every turn will see his chances, and take them.

    Damian Malliapalli

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    1. nope....pretty sure he (rightfully) means bergoglio.

      Don't tell me, Tancred, that you're going all ultramontanist for the false-prophet....say it isn't so.

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    2. If the pope preaches the Gospel, then he is pope.

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    3. The root of the problem is that Jorge Bergoglio has a deep psychological need to be liked. Unfortunately, he has not left that behind as Pope Francis. So he tends to say what the person in front of him wants to hear, never mind what he has said to anyone else.

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    4. JBQ...have you heard the crap he's 'preached' in the past 4 years?...the ratio is WAY weighted to the heretical. So he said something that almost sounds Catholic, so goooolly, he's the pope. What happens the next time he teaches (yet again) against Christ's very words?...he's not pope again?...that would be in line with many Church Doctors; a pope who is a heretic is not pope. You're gonna end up with whiplash.

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    5. It's not the first time in history we've had a heretical pope.

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    6. This out-of-character remark seems to be to be a sign he feels the noose tightening around his neck and the remark is merely a respite to give him some breathing room. He is still who he is.

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  7. If prior to being elected pope, one denied the Sanctity of the marital act by condoning certain same-sex sexual relationships that they defined as being private, not including children and are not called marriage, how can it be possible for the election of that person, who denied the Sanctity of the marital act, to be valid?

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    1. Precisely; According to St Robert Bellarmine, the election of a heretic is null & void, latae sententiae - i've no patience for neocatholics snowflaking around on this guy..

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  8. If this is true, good.
    However the damage is done. It will require a bombastic repudiation of what he has "enunciated" up until now. Then, upon offering his correction, he should resign in shame.
    Be gone.
    All of this is wishful thinking of course. He is just taking a bike ride in a different direction to entertain himself.
    He is the essence of communicable disorientation.

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  9. Bull Feces. A thug does not reverse course. Something is rotten here!

    Karl

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  10. So Andy Cuomo won't be gettin' communion no more? What about Joe Biden's son? What diabolical disorientation!

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  11. Chilean bishops don't speak for the Pope...

    ...but it is encouraging.

    rcm

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  12. I'm skeptical of this. Until Bergoglio speaks definitively for all to hear, I'm not ready to believe second hand reporting from various episcopates. Bergoglio seems to have different messages for different groups.

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    1. plus, it's in diametric opposition to what he told the Argentine bishops. Pure modernist MO.

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    2. I hope I'm not held responsible for things I've said ten years ago but have since repudiated.

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    3. perhaps not, but I'd sure as heck hold you responsible and accountable for what you said yesterday.

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    4. Susan, St. Padre Pio said there is good and bad in everything, he said we must keep the good and throw out the bad. Bergoglio has said something that is good, we can't knock him for everything, only error. The SSPX agreement, these words spoken to the Chilean Bishops are good things. Lets thank God for this attitude from Bergoglio. We should speak out against error but never against good. Bergoglio is recognized as Pope Francis, we gotta be careful or we could end up being condemned as schismatics or sedevacantists. I don't believe he's Pope but I use the term Pope Francis when speaking to Modernists or they will wreak havoc on all Traditionalists they can get their hands on. Lets play our cards right or it could cause destruction to the Traditional Movement.

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    5. Susan has got her act together. She's tough!

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    6. Winslow1191, "She's tough!". When she writes, the test comes when someone speaks to her in like manner. Something about Susan that bothers me is that at times she speaks in a manner that would make a sailor blush. Not worthy of a Lady. Not worthy of a Traditionalist site.

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    7. Oh no, I'm about ready to be judged harshly for something that's none of my doing by someone who is themselves powerless. Lol

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    8. Susan and Winslow are right on target. They do not indulge in wishful thinking at such a dangerous time as ours. If you believe the double-speaking Bergoglio, then you should consider moving with Alice to Wonderland.

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    9. Their thinking is a wishful thinking of another sort.

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    10. The moment we have all been waiting for, for so long, is at our doorstep. That is the SSPX being recognized by Rome. Its sad to see so many who see only darkness in these developments. God forbid that like Bishop Williamson there are those who do actually want to go into schism. The Society never was in schism. I hope they reach an agreement that is guaranteed not to be a trap as Bishop Fellay is shooting for. And he will accept nothing less as he is not doing this for himself but for Christ and his Church. Have some forgotten that prayer and fasting are indispensable before God. Do we Believe? The SSPX knows the Church is alive and well, it is men in the Church who are sick with distorted minds. This is the battle being fought by the Society of St. Pus X, to bring men back to their senses and to believe, in union with Christ and his Church. Lets stop trying to destroy every development. God admonishes us, "Despise not small beginnings".

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    11. Is that your euphemism for applauding talk from two sides of one's mouth? I don't think Christ approved of that sort of thing; in fact it got him right riled!

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  13. Not buying it...unless he comes out with a corrected version of Adulteris Latitia and the Bishops of Malta, Buenos Aires, San Diego, Chicago, the Philippines, and Germany are brought back in line or are replaced. As they say, actions speak louder than words.

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    1. Pfft, the Bishops of all Western conferences have been disobedient to the papacy for over 50 years.

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    2. ...the difference is that currently the Bishops of Malta, Buenos Aires, San Diego, Chicago, the Philippines, and Germany ARE BEING OBEDIENT to this 'pope'.

      pull your head out Tancred.

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    3. Yes, by all means. I will come out when Susan becomes popessa.

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  14. jeeeeze Tancred, even Fr. Z gets it pretty clearly....

    http://wdtprs.com/blog/2017/03/fr-zs-take-on-the-popes-remarks-to-chilean-bishops/

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    1. Tancred, my old curmudgeonly friend, tell me....have you become a brony in addition to becoming a francis groupie?

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    2. So much presumption and malice.

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    3. .....seriously?...you see presumption and malice in that? What the heck happened to your sense of humor?....you used to have one.

      I know, I know....I can hear your snappy retort now, but seriously, lighten up a little bit, and raise the ends of your lips....you might crack your cheek a little, but I think you can do it.

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    4. It is time, Susan, to leave for good this blog. It is moderated by someone we cannot be sure is in the same camp as traditional Catholics. His comments drip with malice, invective, and ill will. TSEliot

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    5. Yes, sound the alarm in whatever subterranean cavity you crawl from at night. I fully understand why Rorate shut off its comments.

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    6. Pure malice and ill will from an irrational person. Here is further evidence. TSEliot

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    7. I visit from time to time traditional Catholic sites like The Remnant, One-Peter-Five, Canon 213, Father Hunwicke, and several others where comments are allowed. In none of them---where the comments are often combative and sometimes acerbic---have I ever seen the viciousness and arbitrary insulting of those who comment from the blog moderator as I see here. I, for one, am moving on---there is here from the Moderator a spirit which is neither Catholic nor traditional. Linda S.

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    8. And some of us understand why a self-appointed blogger thinks it is hhis prerogative to pontificate, abuse those who disagree with him, and use illogic in absurd retorts---all the time thinking, as his electronic nom de plume suggests, he is a virtuous crusader. This blog is poison---not good for the soul or for the Church.

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    9. Ohh, bloggger. That's an important job!

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  15. The SSPX recognizes Bergoglio as Pope Francis (I don't). At the Canon when praying for the Pope they pray for "Pope Francis". I was invited to a dinner where the main guests were a priest and a seminarian of the SSPX. This Priest told us that the documents of V2 have a lot of good in them and the official stance of the Society is that it does not reject the whole of the Council, rightfully only those parts that break with the teaching Tradition of the Church. He said that sadly there are in fact Traditionalists who take things too far. He said that some SSPX priests reject St. Mother Teresa of Calcutta only because she accepted the validity of the Novus Ordo. The official stance of the Society is that it accepts its validity as well, but they don't like what was done to the Mass. There was a lot more. My point here is that Tancred is doing like the Society of St. Pius X and also like Rorate Caeli Blog, he is keeping a rightful balance on what God wills for His Church in the battle against the Modernist heresy. And for this he is criticized? Condemned? Were it not for the balance Tancred keeps, this site would not be trustworthy. Tancred says he fully understands why "Rorate shut off its comments". I agree, Rorate is a trustworthy Traditionalist site because it keeps the rightful Traditional balance. There are many Traditional sites but I found some that take things to the extreme. When I log on to the Internet the first place I go to is Eponymous Flower and Rorate Caeli for Traditional Catholic News I can trust 100% of the time. Am I knocking Tancred's critics? Yes! If we as Traditional Roman Catholics are not united in Truth then we will only be doing God and his Church a disservice.

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    1. Truth and error can not co-exist.

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